Sunday, January 31, 2010
Masorti in Israel and Progressives Here
Another issue we both have is how do you "win" the game when your side cares about actually accomplishing goals while the other side thinks the government you're competing to control fundamentally isn't quite legitimate anyway?
Progressives in the U.S. are hobbled by actually wanting government programs that work (although ironically, vide infra, we seem to have issues with actually communicating how our programs will work) whereas what passes for conservatism in this country is actually a nihilist movement that just doesn't care and is in politics merely to win. How do you win against such a movement that doesn't care about for what we're competing but only winning the competition?
Similarly in Israel -- the Masorti (and other religiously liberal yet Zionist-oriented movements) are hobbled by the fact that we care both about Judaism as a religion and Zionism (which, IMHO, is itself oxymoronic -- which is defined as "pertaining to a moron who doesn't get enough Lutein or Vitamin E in his diet"?). OTOH, many Haredi are not even ideologically Zionist. So what do they care if they drive the Zionist entity to the ground with their antics?
Since the Haredim have the freedom to not support any particular government of Israel or even Israel in general, that gives them tremendous power in Israel that we Conservative/Masorti Jews who are, as a movement (although there are exceptions among us), ideologically committed to "supporting Israel" do not have.
Nu? Under such situations how do forces for freedom and progressive change win?
Of course the ultimate example of this dynamic is Hamas and what's happened in Gaza. Lefties oftentimes accuse Israel of not wanting peace simply because they don't proceed to withdraw from occupied territories in the absence of a larger agreement. But the fact is that Israel tried the option of withdrawing, even when negotiations weren't really moving forward, from Gaza and (not only was Israel criticized for being disingenuous but also anyway) did that result in peace? No ... it resulted in more wars.
Nu? What do you think? Israel, of course, now knows that they cannot withdraw from occupied territory in the name of peace and that if peace, the safety of their residents and even the safety and security of Palestinians (what's happened in Gaza ain't good for the residents of Gaza no matter who's to blame) is the goal, Israel best not withdraw from occupied territories.
But what has happened here? Who's won? Israel? The PA? Which, for all their flaws really are interested in some sort of solution (if not a just one) to the problem? No ... Hamas, which is not interested in a solution was able to win (i.e. create conditions in which it would be irrational to solve the problem) because they don't care whereas Israel is hobbled by caring.
I always find it odd when liberal/progressive types are against Israel and de facto pro-Hamas: which side behaves like constructive (insert bad taste pun about the settlements here), albeit oftentimes asshole, progressives and which side behaves like nihilistic so-called conservatives?
Progressives in the U.S. are hobbled by actually wanting government programs that work (although ironically, vide infra, we seem to have issues with actually communicating how our programs will work) whereas what passes for conservatism in this country is actually a nihilist movement that just doesn't care and is in politics merely to win. How do you win against such a movement that doesn't care about for what we're competing but only winning the competition?
Similarly in Israel -- the Masorti (and other religiously liberal yet Zionist-oriented movements) are hobbled by the fact that we care both about Judaism as a religion and Zionism (which, IMHO, is itself oxymoronic -- which is defined as "pertaining to a moron who doesn't get enough Lutein or Vitamin E in his diet"?). OTOH, many Haredi are not even ideologically Zionist. So what do they care if they drive the Zionist entity to the ground with their antics?
Since the Haredim have the freedom to not support any particular government of Israel or even Israel in general, that gives them tremendous power in Israel that we Conservative/Masorti Jews who are, as a movement (although there are exceptions among us), ideologically committed to "supporting Israel" do not have.
Nu? Under such situations how do forces for freedom and progressive change win?
Of course the ultimate example of this dynamic is Hamas and what's happened in Gaza. Lefties oftentimes accuse Israel of not wanting peace simply because they don't proceed to withdraw from occupied territories in the absence of a larger agreement. But the fact is that Israel tried the option of withdrawing, even when negotiations weren't really moving forward, from Gaza and (not only was Israel criticized for being disingenuous but also anyway) did that result in peace? No ... it resulted in more wars.
Nu? What do you think? Israel, of course, now knows that they cannot withdraw from occupied territory in the name of peace and that if peace, the safety of their residents and even the safety and security of Palestinians (what's happened in Gaza ain't good for the residents of Gaza no matter who's to blame) is the goal, Israel best not withdraw from occupied territories.
But what has happened here? Who's won? Israel? The PA? Which, for all their flaws really are interested in some sort of solution (if not a just one) to the problem? No ... Hamas, which is not interested in a solution was able to win (i.e. create conditions in which it would be irrational to solve the problem) because they don't care whereas Israel is hobbled by caring.
I always find it odd when liberal/progressive types are against Israel and de facto pro-Hamas: which side behaves like constructive (insert bad taste pun about the settlements here), albeit oftentimes asshole, progressives and which side behaves like nihilistic so-called conservatives?
# posted by alberich @ 8:00 AM 
Comments:
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"so called conservatives"
You must be talking about the neo-cons, who rose to power under President Bush and almost destroyed the conservative movement in the republican party. Now, true american patriots have been awakened. The TEA parties were much bigger than most of the press would admit, and the 9/12 project were a huge success. The problem with our great country right now, is our two big political parties both have the same end game: Socialism. They differ on other issues, and how to implement socialism, but both parties have been infected with the self-destructive ideas of socialism.
I totally agree with Isreal's RIGHT & OBLIGATION to defend themselves. The zeal that is coming out of muslims cannot be appeased by peace. Their definition of peace is the absence of any other religion on the planet, which is as foolish as socialism and communism. There will always be dissent, there will always be crime, there will always be poverty. I offer full moral support to Isreal in their fight against our mutual enemy. As someone who also isn't muslim, I am an infadel in the eyes of islam as well.
Luckily, there is a plan for the american people to take their power back from an out of control federal government. While I'm glad to see TEA parties as a grassroots movement try to transform into a political party, they will ultimately be corrupted, just as the other two parties.
That's why I joined the GOOOH Party. The party has no political platform, just dedicated to representing the people, and not some self-serving special interest/lobbyist agenda. If you're interested, check out GOOOH.com and see how we're the only party eliminating influence from special interests and lobbyists. I hope you'll join us, we're gonna need help to beat the big Ds & Rs.
You must be talking about the neo-cons, who rose to power under President Bush and almost destroyed the conservative movement in the republican party. Now, true american patriots have been awakened. The TEA parties were much bigger than most of the press would admit, and the 9/12 project were a huge success. The problem with our great country right now, is our two big political parties both have the same end game: Socialism. They differ on other issues, and how to implement socialism, but both parties have been infected with the self-destructive ideas of socialism.
I totally agree with Isreal's RIGHT & OBLIGATION to defend themselves. The zeal that is coming out of muslims cannot be appeased by peace. Their definition of peace is the absence of any other religion on the planet, which is as foolish as socialism and communism. There will always be dissent, there will always be crime, there will always be poverty. I offer full moral support to Isreal in their fight against our mutual enemy. As someone who also isn't muslim, I am an infadel in the eyes of islam as well.
Luckily, there is a plan for the american people to take their power back from an out of control federal government. While I'm glad to see TEA parties as a grassroots movement try to transform into a political party, they will ultimately be corrupted, just as the other two parties.
That's why I joined the GOOOH Party. The party has no political platform, just dedicated to representing the people, and not some self-serving special interest/lobbyist agenda. If you're interested, check out GOOOH.com and see how we're the only party eliminating influence from special interests and lobbyists. I hope you'll join us, we're gonna need help to beat the big Ds & Rs.
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: 9:49 PM
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I think I would include the tea party movement in the category of "so-called conservatism". Real conservatism involves actually conserving things, not having a tea party.
I also don't think Islam is per se the enemy. Let us remember that we Jews have historically had more to fear from Christendom than from the Ummah. Indeed, we must be wary of Crusaders as historically their cry was to first kill the infidel at home before killing the infidel abroad.
Finally, is socialism such a dirty word?
I also don't think Islam is per se the enemy. Let us remember that we Jews have historically had more to fear from Christendom than from the Ummah. Indeed, we must be wary of Crusaders as historically their cry was to first kill the infidel at home before killing the infidel abroad.
Finally, is socialism such a dirty word?
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